Today on the Basement the whole gang is together at Fan Expo Canada in Toronto! Check in as we chat about everything from what you can expect at the show, to what we’ve been playing, to the Canadian Videogame Awards, and much more!
Podcast: Download (Duration: 50:14 — 69.1MB)
The one thing I’ve taken away from the Zoe Quinn debacle is that I won’t identify myself a “gamer” in future. I’m not sure that I ever have, but going forward I am simply someone who plays games because it is apparent that there is a vocal subset of this culture whose conduct and opinion I find abhorrent and I would never again want to associate myself with such individuals even if they are the minority.
And in part I wonder where this, antagonistic name calling came from. Reading the book “Masters of Doom” it details the early days of deathmatch and the name calling and antagonizing that came from those events at the very core of iD’s office. I have to wonder if that was in part the catalyst that started this abusive relationship that players have with each other online, and evidently even outside of the games themselves. Whatever the case, it needs to change.
Tim Schafer got a lot of flak because he is promoting some one who many gamers consider to be dishonest not because they are misogynist and trying to stop change. One major reason is a video where Anita Sarkeesian says she does not like video games https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcPIu3sDkEw
Combine that video with her dismissing any criticism of her or at least trying to control what criticism people do see so she can play the victim(the comments and likes are disabled on her videos and the comments that she uses as examples are obviously trolls). She got over 150 000 dollars for her videos and did not use any of her own gameplay for her videos instead used footage from “lets plays” and did not credit the sources. The games she uses do are not fairly represented or just poor examples. ex. in her first video she discusses the “damsel in distress” trope and shows footage of a Mario game. I find Mario to be a poor example because games in the 80s had a very limited amount of time to explain the story and the “damsel in distress” trope is a very easy one to show movies use it just as much.
This Know your meme article summarizes why Zoe Quinn is getting a lot of the hate and the Quinnspiracy Theory and “Five Guys Burger and Fries”
video which is posted on the article http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/quinnspiracy-gamergate
The 50% of gamers are women stat only works if you consider people who play games like candy crush on their phone to be a “gamer” im not trying to leave anyone out but I think its important to keep in mind when game developers target males in their advertisement and gameplay.
How can anyone take those clips seriously when they’re so heavily edited? Where’s the full, unedited version with the complete context?
http://vimeo.com/13216819 I believe that this is the original poster she begins talking at around 10:15 the editing in this is mostly for the “vidding” the rest of the lecture is on the same channel as well. The video is not the only problem though. There are large ones like she still has yet to show exactly where the 150 000 went (for sure not recording game footage http://victorsopinion.blogspot.ca/2013/07/anitas-sources.html) and teeny tiny ones to even how she holds an xbox controller https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8I0Wy58adM&list=UU7Edgk9RxP7Fm7vjQ1d-cDA I admit its quite a huge stretch to point that out and say she is not a gamer but I didn’t really think much about it until I saw the video where she says she doesn’t play games. Sure she could be just pushing random buttons for the sake of the video but shouldn’t there be some muscle memory? No on uses the d pad like that. the controller thing is not hard proof its just a drop in the lake. I don’t believe that she disabled the likes and comments on her videos to stop “harassment” it seems like she did it to stop legitimate criticisms and people from seeing them. I love games and there is sexism in the industry but I don’t believe that Anita is the knight people claim her to be.
Ah, yeah my concern was that even the video cited was heavily edited but as it’s on fem frequency.com it must be hers. She does also say in that same video “I would love to play video games but I don’t want to go around shooting people, ripping off their heads” and goes on to talk about conflict resolution in games and the lack of it beyond violence. You can interpret that multiple ways in the same way you can interpret what a “video game” is multiple ways.
She may have also changed her approach as well, or maybe she simply researches from video online and builds an argument around that. I’m not sure that her playing a game necessarily validates or invalidates the concerns she brings up unless what she’s saying is factually inaccurate in which case it can be brought up. The problem is that most if not all of the people and videos which try to dispute her claims invariably attack her as well, which basically sheds all credibility from what they’re saying.
Also interesting to note, is that when you watch reviews on the run, the gameplay they feature during the show is often not gameplay from the actual reviewers, particularly when those reviewers are not based in Vancouver. It’s not uncommon to have Ben and Jose talking about a game and have the character of Batwing playing it (Victor’s guise), when I’ve noticed anyway.
Further, there are individuals on youtube such as Yogscast and Total Biscuit who make a career out of playing games and uploading video. Playing the game, capturing the video, editing it, formulating an argument etcetera all take time to do. I think one could suggest that it’s reasonable that someone in the position of Sarkeesian spends her time researching and editing rather than playing. Further drawing videos from let’s players doesn’t seem like much of a breach of their rights, since the LP’s contribution is not the gameplay but the commentary thereof and sarkeesian’s videos of course do not feature the commentary.
Either way, things to think about for every person and likewise its up to every person to decide whether her videos have value for them or not.
Alright so we have her saying that she does not play video games and then she explains why she doesn’t play video games, because they are violent and gross. No where does she mention that not all games are like that. The broadest possible definition of what is a video game is probably: A game played by electronically manipulating images produced by a program on a display screen. How ever from her own words and her fandom she shows what her idea of a videogame is.
Her research is poor if her best examples for damsel in distresses she could come up for is games from the eighties. Games are misrepresented like hitman absolution where you do receive consequences for killing people and how small the stripclub part of the game is. Playing a game would be a recommend thing for “research” she does misrepresent games she disabled the comments on her videos so the only way to effectively bring it up is another YouTube video or chatting about it like this where she cant delete the comments. If most if not all people that criticize her are attacking her then what would be the proper way to? Am I attacking her because I do not believe who she says she is? Are there no criticisms valid enough to be considered despite someone losing of credibility because of an attack? Does an attack justify the loss of ALL credibility? How strong does the attack have to be if not?
Vic obviously gave give them permission to use his footage Anita did not from the people she took the footage from. Its not content rights im most concerned about. We have no idea what she used the 150 000 dollars she got for her kick starter I was pointing out that she did not use any of that money to buy recording software or equipment the production quality of her videos did not rise notably either i have not seen in her videos a 150 000 dollars worth of research.
If your going to express an opinion on the internet your going to receive scrutiny, when she does receive it she claims that its harassment and uses clearly troll comments to show it. Troll comments are not harassment they say things for shock value and attention when she shows the troll comments to a crowd of people it just generates more because she is giving the trolls what they want. its like laying down on a highway with a grey blanket over you and then wanting to sue the driver for running you over. Its doing something you know will have consequences but still blaming the consequences for happening.
all her videos really manage to do is say “look this is an example of sexism its bad”. She points out things that exist in game but never actually says why they are bad which is probably the most important thing if someone’s going to provide an in depth analysis of something. it would be a pretty bad review if the reviewers said “this game has a bad story” well what’s wrong with the story weak characters, plot holes, offensive?
Why does every critic mention the same thing? Hitman absolution? That’s one example out of 20 in a video yet it’s the one that every mentions. Why? Do people actually watch the videos or do they simply watch the same criticism videos. The consequence in Hitman is that you lose points but that’s only a consequence if you actually care about points or if the success/failure state of the mission is based on points. If you can kill all the girls in the strip club and yet still pass the mission it’s not much of a consequence is it? Compare this to a game like Thief Dark Project, where expert difficulty prohibits you from killing any humans and if you do so you lose the mission automatically. Hitman is a game about assassination, not murder, one would think there was a consequence for killing random innocent people regardless of their walk of life but apparently there isn’t to any significant degree.
As for Damsel in Distress using examples from the 80s. So what? Why not start at the beginning and work your way forward in time. Or why not start with a simple story against which the basis of her argument are easily applied. Then the viewer can take these same lessons and apply it themselves to more current games. Or over time, her videos will work into the modern era and address those games as well.
If the funds of her kickstarter were misused according to the promises of the kickstarter, those people who contributed money should complain. I didn’t contribute money either way so have no opinion on the issue.
Troll comments ARE harassment. Did you even watch the podcast? Listen to what Marissa has to say. Look at the expression in her face and voice when she talks about negative comments on twitter and then imagine someone receiving 100 times what she receives and tell me that it’s not harassment.
Don’t justify or defend abusive people. Don’t excuse them either. There’s no excuse for that sort of behaviour.
And go and watch Victor Lucas’s TED Talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3ssBHhl2OU
Please don’t insinuate that I’m being the kind of person who vics saying not to be. We disagree about something, that doesn’t make me a bad guy automatically from my perspective its the first actual attack from either of us. Im not defending everyone or denying that there are people who step over the line. All I did was try to explain why some people do not like Anita are not all misogynist.
Assassination is murder so yes the game kinda is about murder. it was her last video before a week ago and it was one of the games that were the most poorly represented. In thief dark project you cant kill humans for a challenge not a moral reason. On hit man if you go around killing people on higher difficulties the consequences are higher. You left out the part about enemy npcs trying to kill you as one.Getting caught on the harder difficulties is as good as mission failure.
it would be nice if she was working her way forwards in time but she would not be doing it very well if she was. There is no story she is starting from she is just telling people this trope exist, its bad.
I suppose yes trolling is a kind of harassment but its not on the same level as other forms and there are ways to deal with trolls. Anita feeds the trolls though so she can show people that shes a victim. I doubt most trolls believe what they say, they are just trying to get a rise out of people because they can an emotional response is exactly what they want. Yes trolls can hurt but they don’t follow you into real life if they do you should contact the authorities so they can deal with it.
Lets not do the “did you even watch this” game I can just as easily say that to you. trolls can hurt but “feeling” wont stop trolls. You should not categorize valid criticism with trolls and misogynist that’s what I originally post about. there are valid reason why people don’t like seeing somebody like Anita promoted and I gave a couple of reasons and a link to why there is this so called “conspiracy” with game journalist
If you’re condoning or excusing trolling and abusive comments you are the sort of person vic’s saying not to be. A good person, would not condone that. They would not excuse it. They would strive for a world were comments like that were a thing of the past.
And no I didn’t watch Anita’s latest video. But I didn’t watch Thunderfoots either and I think that’s where you’re basing your opinion from because it’s just the same as everyone else’s. It’s a half hour video but every critcism focuses on 30 seconds of it, that tells me that no one who’s complaining actually watched the other 29:30.
In any case I’m done. You’ve made up your mind, just as everyone I’ve spoken with has likewise made up their mind despite refusing to actually watch the thing they’re criticizing. Maybe people should be criticizing thunderfoot, he’s evidently the real problem as he’s influencing a lot of people who would otherwise not care enough to watch. Funny that a video full of hate and personal attacks is more popular than one that’s striving for better video games.
And what person who plays games wouldn’t want better video games?
Im not defending trolls. im saying they will never stop. there is a difference between saying something will never stop and excusing it. For example; I think stealing is bad but I also think there will always be people that steal I don’t see a good way to stop it, stealing is something all societies have dealt with forever. We take measures to prevent theft but it still happens. Who im defending is the people who are not trolls, trying to saying WHY they don’t trust Anita. Why maybe there are some ok people among these people labelled as trolls for calling someone out.
A good person is a matter of perspective. A good person should try to create a better world, to do that a good person should stand up for what they believe is right and defend those who have been wronged. I realize im kinda blowing my own horn but im doing exactly what my Idea of a good person is, but you are also defending what you believe and that’s good. Being a good person does not make someone right though nor does being wrong make someone a bad person. We both are doing what we think is right. I have no reason to believe you are a bad person.
“And no I didn’t watch Anita’s latest video. But I didn’t watch Thunderfoots either and I think that’s where you’re basing your opinion from because it’s just the same as everyone else’s.”
In this case your the one who is basing your opinion on someone elses.You are doing the very thing you are accusing me of. If you didn’t watch thunderfoots video how do you know that’s its full of hate and personal attacks, either you are making an assumption or your just repeating what other people have told you. Yes I did watch thunderfoots video he shows gameplay and talks about most if not all the games show in the video hes responding to. He has videos on all but one of Anitas video game videos of course im going to use some of the same arguments I just happened to choose that one. That does not mean they are bad or I should use those arguments.
Its fine if your done, im the one who is on the defensive. You replied to me. I did not post with the intention of smearing Anita. I posted with the intension to say why these people who don’t like her are not doing it because she is a feminist or female. im not trying to have the last word im trying to explain why all these people are not bad. there is a point where I will give up.
And what person who plays games wouldn’t want better video games?
This is exactly it the people im defending don’t believe Anita is making games better. Having a damsel in distress or a stripper in a game doesn’t make it bad or sexist game. I doubt that gta lost points from reviewers in general because it had strippers in it and would be better off without them. Even if Anita is “helping” by raising awareness of these tropes it wont change how much people use them in games. tropes like the damsel in distress have been used every where for probably as long as there were stories not to reinforce sexist attitudes but for a plot.
Five seconds of thunderfoots video will tell you exactly what it’s about.
And I’ve since watched Anita’s latest videos. The examples she gives are pretty sickening.
So having Kratos put a woman into a cog to stop a door from closing is something good to have in video games? Volition writers have already said they’re making an effort to make their games more inclusive. Anita is apparently being consulted on either or both of Mirror’s Edge 2 and Remember Me 2 so to say she’s not changing things much might not be entirely accurate.
If nothing else, raising awareness does change things because people will think of these tropes when they play video games. And the inclusion or exclusion of these tropes may affect their purchases in future.
“Five seconds of thunderfoots video will tell you exactly what it’s about.”
No its not that’s flat out just judging a book by its cover. Your making an assumption. Your not even giving it a chance. I don’t think I should explain why assumptions are bad to make in arguments. It looks bad like you don’t even want to hear the other side, you could be blocking out something that you might even agree with.
Kratos does a lot very bad things but whats motivating the character to do them? Did Kratos do that to Aphrodite(I think its her) BECAUSE she was a women? Kratos beats Hercules’s head flat when hes pinned, literally rips Helios’s head off and many other brutal kills of men. Is it sexist ONLY when violence happens to females and ok to kill men in any way you want? Is the game reinforcing that men are violent and can only solve problems with fighting?
If her videos are any indication all she will be able to say is this is bad don’t have it. The developers are not going to take out anything in the game that they think will cause a loss of profits. Profits are probably why they are “consulting” her so it gets her stamp of approval so she doesn’t call them sexist. If a product is called anything bad by anybody with popularity the product will lose profit. They have more to gain if it has her stamp of approval. Who knows it can be a very short consultation also.
Edit: spacing of paragraphs
Really? thinking about the reoccurring damsel in distress in Mario is going to hurt sales? Who even didn’t know that Mario had that as the story? Were we all blinded by the media into thinking it was ok? No Mario rescuing peach is not bad if anything it shows a healthy relationship. What would of been bad is if he ignored her being kidnapped because it would show her that she is a weak object.
Mario rescuing Peach shows they have a healthy relationship? Explain.
A healthy relationship between a man and a woman has nothing to do with his ability to defeat people who kidnap her.
I think in a healthy relationship you should try to help someone from being held against their will no matter the gender or how strong the relationship is (should of made clear). I have zero problem with a man being rescued by a women. I never said anything about his abilities to defeat enemies just that its a normal reaction not to let someone be held captive against their will. Why should gender matter when trying to help someone?
The only issue I have with the Zoe Quinn is how close developer are with the gaming media. I don’t care who does what with who (that’s the TMZ world), I do worry about who is writing articles about games and what their connection is to the developers. I think that discussion is needed. EP is usually quite clear (as far as I know) saying “full disclosure” on that stuff, which is why I trust your site and reviews
I don’t know if this counts as a remake, but the Incredible Hulk was way better than the original.
Anyways, the only way you can think the original Karate Kid is better than the Jackie Chan one is if you are severely affected by nostalgia. There are scenes in the original that are so absurd and poorly acted that they are completely unbearable to watch. The new actors are way better than the ones in the original. As for the “all Asians are the same” statement: Mr. Miyagi in the original said that Karate came from China. So wouldn’t it make sense that the next one takes place in China?
“all asians are the same” well its pretty much what the writers were thinking, because Miyagi is a Japanese name and Karate has a mixed Chinese,Japanese origin, but today mostly seen a Japanese martial art.
I don’t understand the ‘hate’ for Star wars 1-3. Ok, maybe for 1 (Jar jar was bad bad). But 2 and 3 were good. Sometimes I think it’s expectations from our childhood. I didn’t see SW until I was a teenager, and I loved it, but I can still see what is good in 2 & 3. Here’s a question: IF you’re younger when you 1st saw Star Wars, do you think it has extra impact on when you comparing it to the prequel movies?